starting up a wheel company

[TransformCelsior]

allrighty boys, about how much we lookin at for start up cost?

basically we design and meet a minimum requirement from the over seas build houses right?

or order a minimum requirement of what they have to offer no ?

talk to me

[firelizard]

Something like that. I have no idea how much anything costs though...
I've often dreamed of starting a car related company.

[CHUPACABRIO]

alot of loot.

besides that, the market is flooded as it is. profit margins are so low.

[PMP-LEX]

It's hard to make an honest buck...profit margins are too low...too many people are doing it...

But yeah, you'll probably need at least $10K

[CHUPACABRIO]

and if you say ship it overseas to be made, are you refering to the chinese? they will steal your design and sell their own on ebay in a heartbeat. just ask ping and callaway.

[bBOXD]

and if you say ship it overseas to be made, are you refering to the chinese? they will steal your design and sell their own on ebay in a heartbeat. just ask ping and callaway.


WORD! So sad but true.

[V8_Aristo]

Why not buy a CNC machine and produce the face inhouse? You can always buy the barrels anywhere, even overseas. In this way, you have the flexibility of producing your own designs(that you can keep), quantity, quality, size and offset.

[viplife]

Why not buy a CNC machine and produce the face inhouse? You can always buy the barrels anywhere, even overseas. In this way, you have the flexibility of producing your own designs(that you can keep), quantity, quality, size and offset.


producing the face in house is an excellent idea!* and a great way to control counterfitting.

however, cnc machines can easily be 10x the estimated costs, mentioned so far on this thread, without mention of tooling, blanks, maintenance, programming, etc.* keeping in perspective, wheels made for consumers of a forum like this are on the low end.* this is no jesse james or boyd coddington outfit.

keep the ideas coming.

[Betrayed]

Why not make a design for a cnc machine and pay someone with one to create your centers? Be the designer, and outsource the labor. Then bring the newly created centers and barrals back inhouse for assembly.

Other than that? Find a floundering company and buy it up. Redirecting/revamping can be cheeper than starting afresh.

[HG50]

hey man if you are serious give me a call at my shop and ill tell you some basic info that you will need. lots of different things that go on. you gonna be an internet site or a store front like mine? best thing call me @ ohc motoring in northridge

chris

[SoCalSC4]

Sure, it's easy! Just design & engineer the centers (with that Engineering degree you earned in college), have the machining programs written, build a prototype and have it tested & certified (not many companies do this in the USA), buy forged center blanks (in quantity), have them turned (CNC lathe = $50K used), milled (CNC mill = $60K used), buy the hoops (again, in quantity), have the rims polished or plated, the centers finished (anodized, powder coated, chrome, etc.), source the assembly hardware, so the final assemblies (checking each for radial runout), QC the wheels, ship 'em!

You can farm some of the machining out, but you will pay a premium per unit for small quantities and have to wait until the machinist feels like cutting them. If the machinist doesn't ordinarily machine wheel centers, there will be a learning curve where he WILL screw-up several wheel centers. Also, he'll have to make a fixture to hold the parts in both the lathe and mill.

Oh, you'll need boxes and packaging inserts, wheel sealing equipment, an air compressor, a forklift, warehouse (you bought 25 of each rim section in 20 different widths and three diameters, remember?), a staff to answer the phone & do sales, a person to test-fit new vehicles, a wheel assembler/warehouse person, an accountant, etc. No worries.

You'll need about $100K to really make a go at this... that's just to get your foot in the door.

It's easy! Anyone can do it! :idiot2: :2funny:

[TransformCelsior]

haha, why so angry and so condescending ? are you trying to help or are you trying to be a pig ? nobody here wants to hear a smart ass ok ?

who the hell in their right mind (in this global day and age) would go thru what u just said when there are other ways to do it.

I highly doubt companies like Axis , Jaz, Luxe, etc did as you say it's done.

These companies also put out one off designs along with off the shelf designs so I know you can submit a design.

I'd like to know information such as minimum requirements, design requirements, etc.






Sure, it's easy! Just design & engineer the centers (with that Engineering degree you earned in college), have the machining programs written, build a prototype and have it tested & certified (not many companies do this in the USA), buy forged center blanks (in quantity), have them turned (CNC lathe = $50K used), milled (CNC mill = $60K used), buy the hoops (again, in quantity), have the rims polished or plated, the centers finished (anodized, powder coated, chrome, etc.), source the assembly hardware, so the final assemblies (checking each for radial runout), QC the wheels, ship 'em!

You can farm some of the machining out, but you will pay a premium per unit for small quantities and have to wait until the machinist feels like cutting them. If the machinist doesn't ordinarily machine wheel centers, there will be a learning curve where he WILL screw-up several wheel centers. Also, he'll have to make a fixture to hold the parts in both the lathe and mill.

Oh, you'll need boxes and packaging inserts, wheel sealing equipment, an air compressor, a forklift, warehouse (you bought 25 of each rim section in 20 different widths and three diameters, remember?), a staff to answer the phone & do sales, a person to test-fit new vehicles, a wheel assembler/warehouse person, an accountant, etc. No worries.

You'll need about $100K to really make a go at this... that's just to get your foot in the door.

It's easy! Anyone can do it! :idiot2: :2funny:

[Gao Jian]

If you really wanted to do something like this I would look at Malaysia or Indonesia, you get a CAD drawing together and talk to a design house. That way you are outsourcing and don't have to pay the high cost for the machines. Things like this are done a lot actually. I would say that 15-20k would be needed to insure that you are getting a good initial price on the materials. You could totally do it!!!!!!!!!!

[SoCalSC4]

Better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass...
Didn't mean to be condescending, but people treat the wheel business like it's some sort of hobby.
If you were a doctor and I said "I want to become a doctor and have my own practice up & running by November" how would you feel?

What I've mentioned below is EXACTLY what it takes to make a three-piece wheel. How do I know this? I do it for a living.

Axis and Jaz... decent examples, but they are making primarily one-piece cast wheels. I know James (Axis) and Tavis (Jaz) personally and I know a little bit about their business models. Both of these guys have been in the wheel business a long time - they didn't just stop selling insurance one day and open up a wheel company the next. The key is networking - knowing who the suppliers are, and who the jokers are - and financing. Believe me, there are plenty of suppliers and vendors who will promise the world and not deliver, and you'll need substantial financial reserves to get stocking orders going, pay for R&D, tooling, etc. Most casting houses won't just cast wheels four at a time, for obvious reasons.

As far as private label, I doubt either Axis or Jaz are really interested on doing private label wheels in small quantities. Both of these companies are in business to market and promote their own brand names, not put MORE competitors in business. The wheel industry is full of players and wanna-be's, and those of us who are professionals don't feel like we are obligated to help COMPETITORS get into the game. Yeah, it's a little selfish, I know, but you're talking about more than how we make a living... for some of us, it's a passion.

I know a ton about multi-piece wheels, not so much about the technicalities for designing and manufacturing cast wheels.
I do occasionally work as a consultant for wheel AND tire companies.. my hourly rate for this is $75. After all, why should I GIVE the information away that I have worked so long and tirelessly to acquire? Most people don't work for free!

For more info about minimum requirements for cast wheel manufacturing (minimum quantities, techical requirements, etc.), I'd recommend contacting a casting house directly, such as Lenso, BBS, Ronal, etc. $15-$20K MIGHT get the drawings and SOME tooling done for ONE style in one size/diameter/width... based on an annual commitment of several hundred SETS of wheels. Choose your style and fitment wisely.

[TransformCelsior]

your not the dude from Iforged are you ? ::)





For more info about minimum requirements for cast wheel manufacturing (minimum quantities, techical requirements, etc.), I'd recommend contacting a casting house directly, such as Lenso, BBS, Ronal, etc. $15-$20K MIGHT get the drawings and SOME tooling done for ONE style in one size/diameter/width... based on an annual commitment of several hundred SETS of wheels. Choose your style and fitment wisely.

[SoCalSC4]

Uh... no. I am not associated with those characters.

In the past I worked for C.E.C. and HRE Performance Wheels.

[AME_VIP]

awesome info. What does CEC stand for?

In your opinion, why do Iforge and HRE refuse to release offsets? Some kind of competitive advantage?

[chandlerGTi]

awesome info.* *What does CEC stand for?


Claus Ettenberg Corporation...or something like that. It is in their old ads, before they called themselves CEC. I agree that networking is the mmost important thing here. I ordered some custom wheels for my E55 last May(a year ago) and recieved them in September. That isn't cool and most of these guys will get you some cool shiz but they have to experiment with your time and money. Anyway if you know the right people you can get it done, I have some more being made now to mate to a standard Kodiak barrel.

[SoCalSC4]

awesome info. What does CEC stand for?

In your opinion, why do Iforge and HRE refuse to release offsets? Some kind of competitive advantage?


CEC is indeed Claus Ettensberger Corporation. CEC is the North American importer for brands like TechArt, Brabus, Novitec, AC Schnitzer, Antera, Azev... high end brands, mostly for European cars.

The offset info... that's basically considered intellectual property. One customer (an architect) put it best: you pay him thousands of dollars to design a custom home. You build the home. Then he puts the blueprints on the internet and gives them away. Not really fair, is it?

The fitment really is the 'secret sauce' in the wheel business. It's more complicated than most people think. I was a Project Manager for HRE for six years, and in addition to setting-up the SEMA show, photo shoots, coordinating marketing efforts, developing/overseeing/implementing the Quality Assurance system (etc.), I was responsible for all vehicle R&D. I was the guy with the connections to find and measure cars... I was the one pulling wheels off of a new car in the sun on a 100 degree day while sitting on hot asphalt and measuring stuff like brakes, spindles, fender clearance, etc. Then I had to return to the office and create several fitments - from mild to wild - for each vehicle, then formute a 'recipe' for how to manufacture them. You have to juxtapose center pad heights and rim components to arrive at the right combination of wheel width, offet, brake clearance, etc.

It's not very glamorous, but it's a necessary evil. I did (and still do) get to drive some neat cars, though... Aston Martin Vanquish, Murcielago, Gallardo, Ferrari 360 Challenge (full race car on slicks), F360 Challenge Stradale, Porsche Turbo, Supercharged Vettes and Vipers, Saleen S7, etc. I also got to preview and measure several cars before they were available to the public... Corvette C6, Nissan 350z, Ford GT, new Jaguar XJ, Aston Martin DB9...

Then I get to drive home in my old-ass Lexus. :'(

[555]

shit..what a life time experience, it seems like ure pretty successful here from all those experience no? ??? ..i wish i had some sort exp like u do SoCalSC4* :)

[Ender-DI]

ahh!! This has me thinking about milling out a one-off set of faces at work and mating them to those Kodiak barrels. Stuff to research now... Hey SoCalSC4, would you mind sharing a little bit of info for a one-off set? ;)

[gato]

s***..what a life time experience, it seems like ure pretty successful here from all those experience no? ??? ..i wish i had some sort exp like u do SoCalSC4* :)



I second that......big props man. :coolsmiley:

and good reading too. ;)

[SoCalSC4]

ahh!! This has me thinking about milling out a one-off set of faces at work and mating them to those Kodiak barrels. Stuff to research now... Hey SoCalSC4, would you mind sharing a little bit of info for a one-off set? ;)


For a Corolla guy? Sure! E-mail me at the office: bhale@zonewheels.com
I know a lot about the AE86 (and most toyotas...) in fact, I have an AE86 and AW11 in my garage.
Funny you mentioned it, I am working on something new for the Corolla... 18x8 + 18x9s... blasphemy!
The Club4ag.com guys will hate me ;) I don't care; I've had the car since '94, way before they were 'cool.'

Gato, time to update your sig... nice new ride, by the way.

[chrisngo]

A dollar amount cannot be conjured up until you know the MOQ of the manufacturer you are looking to work with. MOQ is what will set the price breaks.

Chris

[chandlerGTi]

Gato, time to update your sig... nice new ride, by the way.


I really like your Z3 style wheel. It has plenty of old skool five spokness while being modern at the same time.

[AME_VIP]

Chandler could you remove that giant pic from your sig?

[One Ton VIP]

If your main intent is to just make money selling whatever wheels... you actually don't need that much $$ to invest... just hit up any of the Chinese/Taiwanese/Malaysian/Fillipino manufacturers at the trade shows and see how much it'd cost for them to brand their existing wheels with your name. That market (cheap knockoff wheels that everyone and their mom sells under their own monicker) is majorly saturated, BUT there's still money to be made there. that's why you can see the same stupid wheel sold under like 5 different brands whenever you look in mags like Super Street. But if you really smart, and you wanted to go that route, you should just get into the bling bling wheel market. Come up with a name that consists of 3 syllables (any more and that crowd wouldn't be able to comprehend it, and any less and it seems "cheap" to them) that is derived from-or sounds like it is-an Italian name... you know... Giovanna, Arelli, Lexani, Savini, Zenetti, etc... profit margin on those wheels is amazing... you can sell those guys a crap ass $100 cost wheel for $1000/ea. Good luck selling a $100 wheel to the tuner guys for anywhere near $300 each w/o hearing complaints. Granted, sometimes you'll have to wonder if the money you're getting is blood money, but hey, money's money, right?

[wangan_low]

I'm not in the rat race(1 more year of mnfg. engineering tech) ,but i would be more than willing to help you on the Quality Control side. I've had a couple internships in Quality ,and I see there's money to be had in "Elite Rims". Hey you might want to checkout this program called Vericut. It's a CNC simulation program.
"Let's get it"
-john

[Ender-DI]

For a Corolla guy? Sure! E-mail me at the office: bhale@zonewheels.com
I know a lot about the AE86 (and most toyotas...) in fact, I have an AE86 and AW11 in my garage.
Funny you mentioned it, I am working on something new for the Corolla... 18x8 + 18x9s... blasphemy!
The Club4ag.com guys will hate me ;) I don't care; I've had the car since '94, way before they were 'cool.'

Oh yeah, those Club4AG guys get butt-hurt over everything. If it's not on Tsuchiya's or Takumi's car, IT CAN'T BE! ::) That's most of the reason why I'm over here. Personally, I'd love to see you tuck some 18s on an AE86. haha... There was that one 1UZ-powered AE86 that was on 18s and that guy got FLAMED on Club4AG. Nevermind the fact that his car looked better than 90% of the cars on that site and had the power to back it all up.

I'll hit you up over email about some wheel questions.

[SoCalSC4]

Oh yeah, those Club4AG guys get butt-hurt over everything. If it's not on Tsuchiya's or Takumi's car, IT CAN'T BE! ::) That's most of the reason why I'm over here. Personally, I'd love to see you tuck some 18s on an AE86. haha... There was that one 1UZ-powered AE86 that was on 18s and that guy got FLAMED on Club4AG. Nevermind the fact that his car looked better than 90% of the cars on that site and had the power to back it all up.

I'll hit you up over email about some wheel questions.


Agreed, I hate to say it, but they're mostly a bunch of 20 year-old kids with no money. I'm building this car because I can, not because I need it for daily transportation. Frankly (like my MR2) it's quickly becoming such a beast that it will never see track time... hell, I won't even drive those cars out of Orange County or park them where I can't see them. The AE has a $6000 paint job on it, we used Glasurit Liquid Silver with seven coats of clear color-sanded & buffed to perfection. Most of the Club4ag guys don't have 6g's in their entire car!

I was never the type to follow trends to the "T." Peole ask me if I'm building my JZS 161 "VIP style;" I tell them no, it's my personal style. I cruise this site because I like and respect VIP style cars, but I have no desire to build a car that looks like anyone else's. There are elements of my GS that are definitely VIP-influenced, but it certainly isn't pure VIP style.

I remember what guys said when we started putting 18" front & 19" rear wheels on NSXs... heresy! Now, lots of guys are doing it.

Love the look of your wagon. I always liked wagons... WAY cooler than an SUV... total sleeper. What's under the hood?

bob

[Ender-DI]

Couldn't have said it better myself. All of it. haha... I treat my AE86 kinda rough, so I haven't put a whole lot of work into the bodywork. It's straight, but it's just rattle can primer.

The wagon, for now, has a stock 2TC motor. It missed the smog exemption cut-off by 6 months. :'( >:( I'm toying with the idea of either putting in a 4AG or a Tacoma V6 for a smog-legal swap. :laugh:

I'm here for the same reasons. With the wagon, I *know* I don't have anything resembling a VIP car. However, I really like a lot of the design theory that comes out of the "VIP camp". I'm looking for that perfect wheel fit, air suspension, maybe some puddle lights (hopefully those won't get too played out), and really fix up the inside. Working as a product designer for an automotive accessory company has it's benefits. I'm going to be replacing the dash panels with machined billet aluminum as well as machining out the rear external vents, rear emblem, and making a billet grille for the front. I've been toying with the idea of putting in tables in the rear and maybe some curtains. Those Anceltion ones are whispering dirty things to me. :smitten:

[TransformCelsior]

bumping an old thread, maybe we can get more useful info about this. hope some of you that responded to this thread are still around.

[Kuroikaze]

If your main intent is to just make money selling whatever wheels... you actually don't need that much $$ to invest... just hit up any of the Chinese/Taiwanese/Malaysian/Fillipino manufacturers at the trade shows and see how much it'd cost for them to brand their existing wheels with your name. That market (cheap knockoff wheels that everyone and their mom sells under their own monicker) is majorly saturated, BUT there's still money to be made there. that's why you can see the same stupid wheel sold under like 5 different brands whenever you look in mags like Super Street. But if you really smart, and you wanted to go that route, you should just get into the bling bling wheel market. Come up with a name that consists of 3 syllables (any more and that crowd wouldn't be able to comprehend it, and any less and it seems "cheap" to them) that is derived from-or sounds like it is-an Italian name... you know... Giovanna, Arelli, Lexani, Savini, Zenetti, etc... profit margin on those wheels is amazing... you can sell those guys a crap ass $100 cost wheel for $1000/ea. Good luck selling a $100 wheel to the tuner guys for anywhere near $300 each w/o hearing complaints. Granted, sometimes you'll have to wonder if the money you're getting is blood money, but hey, money's money, right?


I was going to say that. Just like MRR wheels are rebadged and sold here. Good catch!

[Green Poupon]

Starting up a wheel company? Here's some helpful info:

The CNC machine alone to make forged wheel faces is ~$105,000. PM me if you want model numbers and more information. There's more then one way to make it work.

A one off set (if you can find a place that will do it for you) can cost anywhere between $4,500 to.... really anything.... its not cheap for a forged company to have to stop all the machines to make ONE set of faces for you. If you are lucky enough to find a place that'll do ANY work for you at all they usually have a minimum order of 10 at ~$3,600 a set. Which isn't bad, you just need that $36,000 in the first place!

The cost of having your monoblock made is roughly $35,000 (since they always have a high minimum order) PM me if you want more information. You'll wait 6 months to a year just to get the first wheels.

Rebranding knock-off's is much cheaper. I dunno anything about those though, I would not mess with them. If you absolutely were set on it I would check an asian trade site.

Rebranding (quality) wheels that don't come here is about $20,000 (minimum, per bolt pattern, finish, offset) these would be Axis/MRR/EXE quality. Alot of people knock places like Axis typically its because of a lack of eduction on the subject. Most of the good ones have been taken, theres still a few good stlyes out there. The knock-off companies will give their design to anybody, the quality companies will exclusively allow you to import the design, and they get permission from the company who designed the wheel first. What happens alot is that companies, like Lxury Hanes for example, do not want to sell their wheels in the USA, so they have their production company find someone in the US to rebrand and carry their wheels so they still get a cut of the profits. Rebranding the right wheels is awesome because it gives people a chance to get the same wheels that are offered in Japan/Asia except at a realistic price. In Japan or USA they all came off of the same production line in Taiwan. If a company like Lxury Hanes doesn't want to carry their wheels in America but will allow someone else (for a fee) then why not bring them here?

There is a BUTTLOAD of work a Japanese company has to do to sell its wheels here. Open a US office and warehouse, pay all the import duties and all that stuff, market and everything, and all of that while they are still trying to expand their business at home. It's much easier for them to find someone in the US to rebrand their wheels and give them a cut then do it themselves.

[scottleone]

the best way to learn is to do 555. if you're interested in wheels the best way to learn is to get a job at a wheel shop and start learning everything you can.

SoCAL have you done any work for tire company's, if so which ones?

[TransformCelsior]

for obvious reasons, buying a cnc machine is out of the question.

I know for a fact all these novelty multi piece "forged" wheel companies are not running out and buying a CNC machine, there are way too many of them. It seems like a new company opens up every single week so I doubt there's much money needed to start one up.

finding a dependable, quality build house overseas would be the better option.

oh and the hardest part, creating that truly wonderful wheel design.

[UrbanTacticz]

I have a question, what qualifications do you have to be making and selling wheels? It seems like to me that if you are seeking information about this trade on an internet forum that you should stop while you are ahead.

Just my honest opinion.

I'm getting sick and tired of everyone trying to jump into the industry to try and make a quick buck...

I really am serious though about my question. What are you bringing to the table? Do you have business experience? Do you have engineering experience? Do you have some sort of mechanical trade experience? General auto experience? Design experience, what?

[VIP-UCF]

I understand where all you guys are coming from...BUT, you can't knock the guy for having ambitions...

[ALEXTHESUS*PECT]

very good read. most of the info here is true and usefull. i tried to get a private label wheels made like 3 years back. costs a lot of $$$$ around 100k for the initial order of wheels. not an easy task, but good luck if you choose to do it!

[TransformCelsior]

whoa where did this come from ? just a curious question.

don't worry, Your not gonna be seeing any Wurk Super Wheels anytime soon. =)(Work with the U "wurk" )

trust me, I wouldn't be asking the question if I had all that experience, and I'd be driving a 08 benz CLS and not a 11 year old car.





I really am serious though about my question. What are you bringing to the table? Do you have business experience? Do you have engineering experience? Do you have some sort of mechanical trade experience? General auto experience? Design experience, what?

[Blitz]

money and experience = success

[autofashionELROY]

the best way to learn is to do 555. if you're interested in wheels the best way to learn is to get a job at a wheel shop and start learning everything you can.

SoCAL have you done any work for tire company's, if so which ones?

getting a job at a wheel shop might not be the greatest idea. 9 out of 10 wheel shops are clueless with fitment and always sell a cookie cutter setup like 18x7.5 +42. some people that work at wheel shops don't even know what offset is. a lot of times if you ask them what's the offset on a certain wheel they'll respond w/ the bolt pattern instead. best bet is just keep doing research and if you get a job at a wheel shop go to one that knows what they're doing.

[Yokotas13]

When i get back to the states, i SWEAR im goign to go work for a wheel shop part time, to do nothign but fit wheels.

The fitment most of these places are spitting out is rediculous.
30 minutes with a car, and i can make it perfect, i dont undestand why people dont taket he time!


Anyways, to comment on teh topic at hand...
Seriously though, if you are asking on a forum, then you havent done enough research IMO

[ffgarage]

good thread...

[TransformCelsior]

it's the crazy yokotas!!! =)

anyhow I disagree about your comment. I've learned a lot with this thread from other really cool, helpful members in the industry. I Probably learned more about the industry just on this thread alone than I would have outside on the field.









Anyways, to comment on teh topic at hand...
Seriously though, if you are asking on a forum, then you havent done enough research IMO

[VipDout]

Great read thanks for the bump ... and $$$ to actually make a new wheels and start selling off from how its looking + you are going to need alot of networking esp to get you up and running ..


Good luck on learning more

[VIPete]

It's hard to make an honest buck...profit margins are too low...too many people are doing it...

But yeah, you'll probably need at least $10K

At least $10k to startup? Are you kidding me? Any serious business will need at LEAST 3x's that much to get it off the ground floor. In addition to that, be prepared to cut some loss your first year and lookout for all the other barriers to entry doing it. This is an oversaturated market flooded by knockoff companies and gaining some stable ground will take time (YEARS) and hard work. It's no fly by night operation folks.

Good luck if you can do it. If you're thinking about manufacturing overseas to cut costs, I assume you will join the likes of R1, Rota and blah blah company from China who span the global world of business with crap. I hope for the sake of the future of this industry your quality control is top notch and you will actually contribute to the industry rather than make a quick buck.

In house manufacturing is a great start, and as VIPlife said. It's going to take ALOT more than 10k to get you running.

I'm not trying to sound condescending, just giving you some points to think about. It's better to hear it now than experience it when you're in deep in the hole.

[VIPtoyz]

Why not buy a CNC machine and produce the face inhouse? You can always buy the barrels anywhere, even overseas. In this way, you have the flexibility of producing your own designs(that you can keep), quantity, quality, size and offset.
Definitely agree with V8. My buddy own a metal shop and buy the CNC machine recently. he was thinking about producing wheels and other stuff too but I'm not sure what is the profit margin on that because CNC machine hour are expensive

[VIPtoyz]

[quote=Yokotas13;126829]When i get back to the states, i SWEAR im goign to go work for a wheel shop part time, to do nothign but fit wheels.

The fitment most of these places are spitting out is rediculous.
30 minutes with a car, and i can make it perfect, i dont undestand why people dont taket he time!

Yokotas you can start working in here by helping us =)

[Yokotas13]

I cant, until i become a vendor, i cant.
but soon my friends. soon

[Caoboy]

Problem is, People, don't care about fitment. People, don't want their fenders sliced up and rolled and pulled. People, don't want stretched tires. People don't want to pay more for tires because they are wider. People, DON'T CARE about fitting wheels properly.

Just look at Club Lexus Grant, It's exactly what I'm talking about. MOST on there don't care about wheel fitting, if they do, they look at how much they can get away with without rubbing, and without doing ANY body modifications or stretching tires.

This is a performance niche, only those who are in the know will do it and or care about properly fitting wheels.

Yes, custom offset wheels are nice. No, people don't care about custom offset wheels, unless they are specifically looking for something. Even if they do, most DON'T want to deal with the headaches of nice looking wheels, i.e. big lips, and flush.

[Yokotas13]

ugh
tlel me about it

take now for instance, If i order kranzes again
not only do i have to remeasure everything, but i have to order them in PAIRS.
since i want a FR face on the front, i have to order rears, fit them to the brakes in teh front, then order fronts.

how many normal people woudl do that?
not a one.

i hate niche stuff. i hate myself loloolz

[bighitbiker3]

ugh
tlel me about it

take now for instance, If i order kranzes again
not only do i have to remeasure everything, but i have to order them in PAIRS.
since i want a FR face on the front, i have to order rears, fit them to the brakes in teh front, then order fronts.

how many normal people woudl do that?
not a one.

i hate niche stuff. i hate myself loloolz

People just don't really care. They don't really understand what a good fitting wheel can look like. But when they see there car with nothing but good fitting wheels and a nice stance and nothing else they think WOW that looks good. So then they get some knockoff wheels with a +65 offset grab a bodykit and think there car looks better. It doesn't work that way.

[SoCalSC4]

Depends on the customer... Porsche and Ferrari guys are more particular about fitment.
It's not that they specify how they want the wheels to fit, or that they educate themselves about it - it's just that they will complain about the fitment if it's weak.

So, then the issue is... you want to make high-end three-piece wheels for sport/lux cars.
You have four styles, in 19,20, and 22". You need an initial production run to get the ball rolling and to get a machine shop to even talk to you. Do you load-up on Mercedes applications? Ferrari? A mixture? Because no matter what you do... make 20" Mercedes wheels with black centers... the customer GUARANTEED will want 19" BMW wheels in silver. Make a set of 5-spoke 20" Ferrari wheels and the customer will want your Mesh style in 19"... You can't forecast this well enough with a low-volume wheel to be truly effective and timely.

So, then you make the customer his 19" BMW wheels in silver... this takes three weeks. The customer is happy and you get paid. In the meantime you're still sitting on all that other center & rim stock/inventory you've already bought and paid for. It's a cash-intense business, you basically can't have too much cash!

Warehouse space in SoCal is over $1 a square foot; you'll want t a little space to grow into since you signed a 3-year lease... 2,000 square feet would be a minimum. You'll want to be in SoCal because that's where the vendors and the majority of your customers will be. You'll need a panel van at a minimum for deliveries, etc... these are rated "commercial vehicles" and cost $3,000 a year just to insure. Don't forget an air compressor, shelves, workbenches, tools, boxes, inserts, tape, nuts, bolts, silicone... You'll need worker's comp and product liability insurance... our product liability insurance premium is over $20K annually. And you'll need to spread the word, through marketing, media, and website materials.

Whatever you think it costs to do a wheel start-up... triple it.


Murphy's law?

Murphy is a Wheelmaker.

[TransformCelsior]

thanks for the info.

just curious, do you guys patent your wheel designs ? or is it a "free for the taking" mentality in the US forged wheel industry? and don't worry, nobody is thinking about copy-ing your Zone wheels.


Depends on the customer... Porsche and Ferrari guys are more particular about fitment.
It's not that they specify how they want the wheels to fit, or that they educate themselves about it - it's just that they will complain about the fitment if it's weak.

So, then the issue is... you want to make high-end three-piece wheels for sport/lux cars.
You have four styles, in 19,20, and 22". You need an initial production run to get the ball rolling and to get a machine shop to even talk to you. Do you load-up on Mercedes applications? Ferrari? A mixture? Because no matter what you do... make 20" Mercedes wheels with black centers... the customer GUARANTEED will want 19" BMW wheels in silver. Make a set of 5-spoke 20" Ferrari wheels and the customer will want your Mesh style in 19"... You can't forecast this well enough with a low-volume wheel to be truly effective and timely.

So, then you make the customer his 19" BMW wheels in silver... this takes three weeks. The customer is happy and you get paid. In the meantime you're still sitting on all that other center & rim stock/inventory you've already bought and paid for. It's a cash-intense business, you basically can't have too much cash!

Warehouse space in SoCal is over $1 a square foot; you'll want t a little space to grow into since you signed a 3-year lease... 2,000 square feet would be a minimum. You'll want to be in SoCal because that's where the vendors and the majority of your customers will be. You'll need a panel van at a minimum for deliveries, etc... these are rated "commercial vehicles" and cost $3,000 a year just to insure. Don't forget an air compressor, shelves, workbenches, tools, boxes, inserts, tape, nuts, bolts, silicone... You'll need worker's comp and product liability insurance... our product liability insurance premium is over $20K annually. And you'll need to spread the word, through marketing, media, and website materials.

Whatever you think it costs to do a wheel start-up... triple it.


Murphy's law?

Murphy is a Wheelmaker.

[TransformCelsior]

and another question socalsc4,

why are the face thickness of most USA forged wheel companies so thin ? it just seems so 1 dimensional and so cookie cutter, template formation styling. Is that the limiations to the CAD software ? or the limitations of the designer ? or the attempt at saving aluminum material ?





Depends on the customer... Porsche and Ferrari guys are more particular about fitment.
It's not that they specify how they want the wheels to fit, or that they educate themselves about it - it's just that they will complain about the fitment if it's weak.

So, then the issue is... you want to make high-end three-piece wheels for sport/lux cars.
You have four styles, in 19,20, and 22". You need an initial production run to get the ball rolling and to get a machine shop to even talk to you. Do you load-up on Mercedes applications? Ferrari? A mixture? Because no matter what you do... make 20" Mercedes wheels with black centers... the customer GUARANTEED will want 19" BMW wheels in silver. Make a set of 5-spoke 20" Ferrari wheels and the customer will want your Mesh style in 19"... You can't forecast this well enough with a low-volume wheel to be truly effective and timely.

So, then you make the customer his 19" BMW wheels in silver... this takes three weeks. The customer is happy and you get paid. In the meantime you're still sitting on all that other center & rim stock/inventory you've already bought and paid for. It's a cash-intense business, you basically can't have too much cash!

Warehouse space in SoCal is over $1 a square foot; you'll want t a little space to grow into since you signed a 3-year lease... 2,000 square feet would be a minimum. You'll want to be in SoCal because that's where the vendors and the majority of your customers will be. You'll need a panel van at a minimum for deliveries, etc... these are rated "commercial vehicles" and cost $3,000 a year just to insure. Don't forget an air compressor, shelves, workbenches, tools, boxes, inserts, tape, nuts, bolts, silicone... You'll need worker's comp and product liability insurance... our product liability insurance premium is over $20K annually. And you'll need to spread the word, through marketing, media, and website materials.

Whatever you think it costs to do a wheel start-up... triple it.


Murphy's law?

Murphy is a Wheelmaker.

[SoCalSC4]

and another question socalsc4,

why are the face thickness of most USA forged wheel companies so thin ? it just seems so 1 dimensional and so cookie cutter, template formation styling. Is that the limiations to the CAD software ? or the limitations of the designer ? or the attempt at saving aluminum material ?


That's a good question. The short answer is that with a forged center you can get away with less material because the forged part has more inherent strength. This means less material (you're right about cost- aluminum is sold by the pound) and less weight. If you made the center sections thick they would weigh a ton! You could always machine out the excess aluminum, but CNC time costs money. We used to machine the RD Sport split-5 spoke centers and with all the radii and detailing each part took over three hours to mill... not including the lathe work, finishing, or assembly!

Another reason is that most American wheel manufacturers (for the most part) actually WANT more simple designs with fewer radii and soft contours- this is partly what differentiates a forged part from a cast part. Why spend the time and money to create a wheel that looks cast? It is difficult to cast aluminum with crisp, sharp lines in the part; that's why most cast wheels have more flowing lines and soft edges. Creating all those curved surfaces on the CNC mill takes forever, so if you want this look it's more cost-effective to just pay for a mold.

The CAD software these days is immensely powerful. You can draw a model in 2D and then render it in 3D. Programs like ProE will even shade the model and let you rotate it; you can also perform finite-element analysis on the part to predict strength and potential fatigue areas. And the CNC mills can create almost any contour, it's just a question of how much time you want to spend programming and milling each part.

Your question about trademarking designs... it's really not easy to do this. By the time you could get a patent, someone could have already copied your wheel, and by then the damage is done. For the most part, patents are only issued for new concepts or technology; since a wheel style doesn't really represent "re-inventing the wheel," you basically can't get a patent. Not to mention the cost of a patent (usually about $10K)...

Furthermore, enforcing a copyright or patent worldwide is nearly impossible. The Chinese are notorious for ignoring this. BBS basically bankrupt themselves two years ago trying to shut-down replicas of their wheels. Lawyers bill at $250+ an hour... it doesn't take long for this to add up in a hurry.

For a small company like Zone, we just let our quality and fitment expertise speak for us. We're small enough to mostly fly under the radar as far as the big replica wheel business is concerned. Better to focus on what you do WELL rather than worry about what the competition is doing!

[fresh]

i used to think about this too a long time ago. especially for discontinued wheels. some companies that had good designs but just dont make them anymore. ie dronell . could a new company take a design of that wheel that was discontinued and go from there. or taking a oem wheel and make it bigger would something like that be possible?